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02:53 <Synapse> Apologies. Painters knocked out the power again.
02:54 <hal2k> Synapse: no UPS?
02:56 <cbarrett> win move 13
02:56 <cbarrett> oops
02:56 <EarthMkII> heh
02:56 <cbarrett> sholt!
02:56 <EarthMkII> ramoth!
02:56 <cbarrett> heh
02:57 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o cbarrett
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02:57 *** cbarrett sets mode: -t
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02:57 <cbarrett> ugh
02:57 <cbarrett> haet
02:57 <The_Tick> sec
02:57 <cbarrett> nah I got it
02:57 *** cbarrett changes topic to "http://trac.adiumx.com/wiki/AdiumMeetings/2007-02-08"
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02:57 <djbsquared> and i thought i was early
02:57 <The_Tick> msg chanserv set #adium-mtg mlock -t
02:57 * Catfish_Man just got here
02:58 <The_Tick> should do it
02:58 <Synapse> hal2k: Nope.
02:58 <Synapse> Hopefully TC will be moving offsite in the near future.
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02:58 *** ChanServ sets mode: -s+n
02:59 <cbarrett> okay
02:59 <Mac-arena> cancel
02:59 <cbarrett> allow
02:59 <Mac-arena> ;)
02:59 *** cbarrett sets mode: -oo Mac-arena cbarrett
02:59 <Mac-arena> :D
02:59 <Catfish_Man> ABORT, RETRY, FAIL?
02:59 <Mac-arena> , IGNORE?
02:59 <cbarrett> we're waiting on evands, right?
03:00 <Mac-arena> What did he order?
03:00 <djbsquared> is he coming?
03:00 <cbarrett> Soup D'Jour
03:00 <cbarrett> I would assume so.
03:00 <Mac-arena> What *is* the soup du jour?
03:00 * EarthMkII waits for fearless leader
03:00 <edr1084> cbarrett: he says he probably won't make it
03:00 <djbsquared> Mac-arena: soup
03:00 <edr1084> according to his update to the agenda
03:00 <cbarrett> Mac-arena: the soup of the day
03:00 * Synapse checks that logging is working.
03:00 <djbsquared> Soup™ flavored soup
03:00 <Synapse> !adiumlogs
03:00 <TownCrier> http://adiumlogs.mootpointer.com
03:00 <djbsquared> Synapse: im logging too
03:01 <djbsquared> as is Mac-arena
03:01 * Mac-arena remembers there being a skit that went "It's ____" "But yesterday it was ____! Why can't you people make up your mind?!"
03:01 <djbsquared> and probably almost everyone else
03:01 * hal2k too
03:01 <cbarrett> btw, I think the reason there is discussion on the agenda is that those people weren't able to make it.
03:01 <Synapse> Concerning....
03:01 <cbarrett> and FWIW, The_tick, you did ask a question :)
03:01 <cbarrett> we're discussing 1. a.
03:01 * cbarrett bangs the gavel
03:01 <cbarrett> meeting is in order etc etc
03:02 * Mac-arena clears his mind of banging jokes
03:02 <cbarrett> status icon overlay? The_Tick?
03:02 <Catfish_Man> 1a: Zac is right
03:02 <EarthMkII> heh
03:02 <cbarrett> The_Tick: you added that item, thoughts?
03:02 <zac> not unheard of
03:02 <cbarrett> I agree with Catfish_Man.
03:02 * cbarrett is taking notes.
03:03 <djbsquared> what is the issue?
03:03 <cbarrett> djbsquared: load up the agenda
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03:03 <cbarrett> item 1a.
03:03 <cbarrett> bgannin, just in time.
03:03 <cbarrett> we just started
03:03 <bgannin> i try
03:03 <cbarrett> item 1a.
03:03 <cbarrett> agenda is in the topic.
03:03 <djbsquared> yea, i too agree with zac
03:03 <djbsquared> its not a 1.0.1 fix anyway
03:04 <bgannin> likewise
03:04 <EarthMkII> I also agree with this "zac"
03:04 <Catfish_Man> on to 1b?
03:04 * edr1084 nods as well
03:04 <cbarrett> okay, next item, Fonts.
03:04 <EarthMkII> well... that was easy
03:04 <Mac-arena> What'd zac say?
03:05 <Catfish_Man> Mac-arena: "Zac says this is not really a necessary concern. The code in 1.1 (trunk) allows xtras authors to specify if they want the badging to occur. See MenuBarIcons"
03:05 <EarthMkII> 1.a.iv
03:05 <cbarrett> Mac-arena: read the agenda page.
03:05 <Mac-arena> Ah.
03:05 <djbsquared> i did not exactly like the mockup Mac-arena sent out last night/this morning... but i think something along those lines may be necessary
03:05 <Catfish_Man> has everyone seen my mockup on ticket 1882? and how iChat does it?
03:05 <djbsquared> !ticket 1882
03:05 <TownCrier> http://www.chatkit.net/ticket/1882
03:05 <Catfish_Man> 'cause I'm in favor of that general concept (gee, in favor of my own idea, what a concept ;) )
03:05 <cbarrett> this is 1b, now, fonts, right?
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03:05 <djbsquared> thats not right
03:05 <Catfish_Man> cbarrett: yeah
03:06 <edr1084> TownCrier: ....
03:06 <Synapse> That's odd.
03:06 <Mac-arena> The problem, so to speak, is that Adium tries to juggle plain-text and rich-text in the same field. Nothing else on the Mac does this.
03:06 <paulwilde> http://trac.adiumx.com/ticket/1882
03:06 <Catfish_Man> djbsquared: http://trac.adiumx.com/attachment/ticket/1882/prefsmockup2.png
03:06 * Synapse fixes
03:06 <djbsquared> Catfish_Man: yea, just goudn it
03:06 <Mac-arena> So we have no UI precedent to follow.
03:06 <djbsquared> *found it
03:06 <Mac-arena> So, we can basically do whatever we want :)
03:06 <Catfish_Man> the upper right area is the iChat-based part
03:06 <Catfish_Man> I'll get a shot of iChat and post it as well
03:06 <Catfish_Man> one sec
03:06 <Synapse> !channel plugins.tracbot.tracbase http://trac.adiumx.com
03:06 <TownCrier> The operation succeeded.
03:07 <cbarrett> Synapse: danke.
03:07 <Synapse> !ticket 1882
03:07 <TownCrier> http://trac.adiumx.com/ticket/1882
03:07 <djbsquared> Catfish_Man: i think that would work... but where is the actual font selector... im under the impression that is the actual problem
03:07 <cbarrett> djbsquared: the "change" button.
03:07 <Catfish_Man> djbsquared: is it? I've been under the impression that the problem is that we have two things labeled "font", both in totally different places
03:07 <The_Tick> sorry folks, I'm back now
03:07 <djbsquared> cbarrett: not to get there
03:07 <Catfish_Man> but one changes incoming, the other outgoing
03:07 <djbsquared> Catfish_Man: you know, im not actually sure
03:07 <Mac-arena> The_Tick: We decided to agree with zac.
03:08 <The_Tick> I think the user should have the choice
03:08 <The_Tick> not the xtra creator
03:08 <djbsquared> i thought the issue was that people can find it, and then set it even, but it doesnt stuck
03:08 <Catfish_Man> The_Tick: I think that's a bad idea
03:08 <The_Tick> since users may like the xtra but dislike the overlay
03:08 <Mac-arena> I agree, actually. We already get hell about timestamps in the message view
03:08 <The_Tick> Catfish_Man: I think the overlay is a bad idea
03:08 <cbarrett> I think the problem is that our current preferences only visiually style our mesages, not actually applying things.
03:08 <djbsquared> The_Tick: we have variations for that reason
03:08 <The_Tick> djbsquared: so we should have 30 variations
03:08 <The_Tick> instead of one checkbox
03:08 <djbsquared> one on, one off?
03:08 <Catfish_Man> uh, false premise
03:09 <Catfish_Man> one checkbox could only possibly reduce to 15
03:09 <Catfish_Man> basic math
03:09 <The_Tick> better than 30
03:09 <proton> those preference mockups in that ticket are very cluttered
03:09 <cbarrett> okay what are we talking about
03:09 <proton> no whitespace :(
03:09 <hal2k> the prefs are a bit heavy on settings already
03:09 <Mac-arena> cbarrett: 1a
03:09 <The_Tick> we're talking about 1a
03:09 <cbarrett> again?
03:09 <Catfish_Man> proton: they're rather old
03:09 <Catfish_Man> cbarrett: yeah, The_Tick was gone
03:09 <Catfish_Man> and since he's the only one who actually thinks that...
03:09 <cbarrett> do we all agree this is not a 1.0.1 issue?
03:10 * Catfish_Man does
03:10 <bgannin> yes
03:10 <The_Tick> yes, but it's an issue in adium 1.0
03:10 <djbsquared> should
03:10 <The_Tick> since that was the header on that one, I added it
03:10 <cbarrett> The_Tick: I understand, I'm just trying to get a feel for severity, etc.
03:10 <The_Tick> sure
03:10 <hal2k> this fix could wait until 1.1 I guess
03:10 <The_Tick> hal2k: at least
03:10 <Catfish_Man> ok, this raises a larger issue in my mind
03:10 <Catfish_Man> do we want prefs, or author flexibility
03:11 <Catfish_Man> I am strongly in favor of reducing prefs
03:11 <cbarrett> I agree.
03:11 <Catfish_Man> and I think author flexibility is a good way to go about doing that
03:11 <The_Tick> I think we need to balance it
03:11 <hal2k> usually, you should avoid every pref item that's not absolutely necessary
03:11 <djbsquared> I think author flexibility is one of those things we have in a lot of prefs
03:11 <EarthMkII> let's not bloat the pref; again, eh?
03:11 <djbsquared> s/prefs/xtras
03:11 <The_Tick> I think the problem we see
03:11 <djbsquared> and if people want no overlay, they choose an xtra with no overlay
03:11 <The_Tick> is that authors have a message style with 20-30 variations
03:11 <hal2k> bloated prefs is the #1 general complaint about adium I've heard
03:11 <The_Tick> because they can't give users the control like in colloquy
03:11 <cbarrett> The_Tick: what does this have to do with message styles?
03:12 <djbsquared> The_Tick: but this isnt message styles
03:12 <The_Tick> so they add every requested color ever
03:12 <cbarrett> i'm confused.
03:12 <Catfish_Man> The_Tick: wkmv2 will address that
03:12 <djbsquared> this is Menu Items
03:12 <The_Tick> cbarrett: author flexibility
03:12 <Mac-arena> cbarrett: blue-green, red-green, red-blue, blue-gray, green-gray, ...
03:12 <Mac-arena> As opposed to sent-received
03:12 <cbarrett> The_Tick: okay but we're talking about menu items, not message styles.
03:12 <The_Tick> so if someone makes a menu bar image pack
03:12 <The_Tick> and it has
03:12 <hal2k> not every color combination works
03:12 <The_Tick> 30 different shades of green
03:12 <cbarrett> also, author flexibility can still mean prefs in Adium
03:12 <The_Tick> it'd have 60 variants
03:12 <cbarrett> just author supplied prefs.
03:12 <The_Tick> one for on, one for off
03:13 <cbarrett> anyway, lets stay on topic, ok?
03:13 <Mac-arena> cbarrett: Same issue, really.
03:13 <The_Tick> I'm on topic
03:13 <cbarrett> no, yor'e talking about message styles.
03:13 <Mac-arena> The solution to the EMD was "author control"
03:13 <Catfish_Man> I agree that The_Tick is on topic here
03:13 <Mac-arena> but that leads to the same problem as with message view styles.
03:13 <cbarrett> I'm still not seeing the connection.
03:13 <Mac-arena> Infinite variants
03:13 <The_Tick> then you need to read up
03:13 <Catfish_Man> cbarrett: the variants problem
03:13 <Mac-arena> The solution in both cases is *user* control
03:13 <cbarrett> menu items don't support vairants.
03:13 <Catfish_Man> we want to avoid it for menus
03:13 <cbarrett> AFAIK.
03:13 <Catfish_Man> ...
03:13 <Catfish_Man> they do
03:13 <Catfish_Man> zac just said that
03:13 <cbarrett> Okay, well I didn't know.
03:14 <Catfish_Man> that's the entire discussion right now, in fact
03:14 <The_Tick> ok, my point is
03:14 <The_Tick> users want the control here
03:14 <Mac-arena> Even if they didn't, you could still have a folder full of different EMD styles.
03:14 <cbarrett> I didn't see that, I am also taking notes and I got pulled away for a sec to answer a question.
03:14 <The_Tick> they're complaining already
03:14 <djbsquared> either way, user selectability or variants you are adding pregs
03:14 <The_Tick> should we give it to them
03:14 <djbsquared> *prefs
03:14 <The_Tick> and if so, should it be via variants
03:14 <Mac-arena> "Foo, lower-left" "Foo, lower-right"
03:14 <The_Tick> or via a checkbox type control
03:14 <djbsquared> Is there anyway to add user selected color to Menu Items?
03:14 <The_Tick> I think everyone agrees to give them some level of control
03:14 <cbarrett> Mac-arena: I don't think we need that much control.
03:14 <The_Tick> Mac-arena: that's overkill
03:15 <Catfish_Man> one thing to consider is control included by default, vs. control included by installing something
03:15 <djbsquared> its a double edged sword, if you want to give overlay checkbox, you might as well give the user real control
03:15 <Catfish_Man> we can limit the number of variations in default xtras
03:15 <Catfish_Man> and if people want to install more, that's their business
03:15 <The_Tick> I really think it all boils down to the need for a separate app to allow users to create and author these things
03:15 <Mac-arena> You know users will request it, and it's not unreasonable - status icons don't always look as good in one corner as the other.
03:15 <Catfish_Man> I removed about 30 variants from minimal_mod iirc
03:15 <Mac-arena> One pop-up menu will do the job.
03:15 <Mac-arena> "No status icon" "Lower-left" "Lower-right" etc.
03:15 <cbarrett> The_Tick: okay I think that is a much larger issue than just menu items
03:16 <Mac-arena> nte
03:16 <The_Tick> cbarrett: it's still a 1.0 issue
13:15 < cbarrett> and I think we should try and find a temporary solution to menu items
13:15 < Mac-arena> The_Tick: That's authorship, not solving the variants problem nor the overlay problem
13:15 < The_Tick> remove it for now
13:15 < The_Tick> enough people are complaining
13:15 < The_Tick> do it right for 1.1
13:15 < Catfish_Man> The_Tick: no, that's a bad solution
13:15 < Catfish_Man> we got more yes than no
13:15 < Mac-arena> I don't think it's a problem in 1.0. I agree with zac on that point.
13:15 < The_Tick> 1.1 isn't that far off
13:15 < The_Tick> I'm fine with that too
13:15 < djbsquared> The_Tick: some people are complaining, but no one complained in the beta
13:16 < The_Tick> djbsquared: some did
13:16 < Catfish_Man> djbsquared: we even had a poll on the blog
13:16 < cbarrett> it's not a 1.1 scope thing, this is much bigger. This is talking about adding prefs to Xtras, that's more of a 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 thing.
13:16 < djbsquared> does that mean early adopters dount count as much as release users?
13:16 < Catfish_Man> djbsquared: it's irrelevant who counts more; people who dislike the status quo will always be heard from more
13:16 < Catfish_Man> so no matter what we do, we'll get complaints
13:16 < The_Tick> cbarrett: I don't think your time table is realistic
13:16 < djbsquared> right
13:16 < EarthMkII> bingo
13:16 < zac> i don't think an option for where to display or if to display is necessary
13:16 < cbarrett> i didn't talk about times?
13:16 < djbsquared> so removal everytime people start complaining isnt an option
13:17 < zac> some xtras will inherantly look better with badges, some won't, it's an author decision
13:17 < cbarrett> adding preferences that are displayed in the UI to Xtras is not an easy thing.
13:17 < The_Tick> look
13:17 < The_Tick> guys
13:17 < The_Tick> this is a mess
13:17 < The_Tick> we're having 8 conversations
13:17 < EarthMkII> I'm with zac on this one
13:17 < cbarrett> i am trying to keep people on topic.
13:17 < Catfish_Man> I'm not having any issues following this
13:17 < Mac-arena> Me either. But then, I've done this for years. :)
13:17 < The_Tick> it's a meeting, it's not a general irc channel type thing
13:18 < cbarrett> Does anyone disagree with us just leaving things the way they are now, and figuring out preferences for Xtras as part of a larger issue?
13:18 < The_Tick> cbarrett: not quite
13:18 < cbarrett> in a future release
13:18 < Mac-arena> Sure.
13:18 < Catfish_Man> cbarrett: fine by me. I'll be bringing it up again in the wkmv2 discussion
13:18 < The_Tick> ya, deferred to then
13:18 < The_Tick> on to 1b?
13:18 < Mac-arena> Let the solution we came up with earlier be recorded in the minutes.
13:18 < Catfish_Man> heh
13:18 * Mac-arena taps TownCrier's microphone. You got that?
13:18 < cbarrett> Fonts.
13:18 < Mac-arena> Fonts. And Colors.
13:18 < EarthMkII> heh
13:18 < cbarrett> Evan: I think that besides #6286 the biggest problem has to do with colors. Based on some reports, the 'save as default font' button doesn't handle c
olors right all the time, perhaps.
13:19 < Mac-arena> It does; it's just not obvious.
13:19 < Catfish_Man> iChat addresses this by showing colors separately
13:19 < EarthMkII> how so?
13:19 < Mac-arena> The difference is that it uses the font from the FP, but the colors from the current text selection.
13:19 < The_Tick> is there anything that can be done in the next month to change that?
13:19 < Mac-arena> (There being no way to extract the current colors from the FP.)
13:19 < The_Tick> Mac-arena: I'm not a fan of your mockup
13:19 < The_Tick> if that's what you are referring to
13:19 < Mac-arena> The_Tick: Screencast and new FontsAndColors page.
13:19 < Mac-arena> The_Tick: No, I'm referring to 1.0.
13:19 < The_Tick> mkay
13:19 < Mac-arena> We haven't gotten to the future-version solutions yet.
13:19 < Mac-arena> FontsAndColors I can do later today
13:20 < Mac-arena> Screencast is in FCE, partially marked up and still to be voice-tracked.
13:20 < The_Tick> that will help after the fact
13:20 < Catfish_Man> so, first question is what controls we actually need
13:20 < cbarrett> Is this something we can/want to fix in 1.0.x?
13:20 < Mac-arena> Quick interlude: Part of the problem is that the Font button in the message window doesn't work.
13:20 < djbsquared> They need to be clarified or simplified
13:20 < The_Tick> I'd like to have this fixed as much as possible for 1.0.x
13:21 < The_Tick> since we're dropping 10.3 with 1.1
13:21 < Mac-arena> Font button needs to put the Set as Default button into the FP like Show Fonts does.
13:21 < cbarrett> I think Mac-arena's point is a good one.
13:21 < cbarrett> I think that will help.;
13:21 < Mac-arena> cbarrett: Which one? I've had fifteen so far...
13:21 < cbarrett> 21:21 < Mac-arena> Font button needs to put the Set as Default button into the FP like Show Fonts does.
13:21 < djbsquared> which button? the one in the toolbar?
13:21 * Mac-arena nods
13:21 < Mac-arena> That's not a point, so much as just a bug.
13:21 -!- samsamoa [n=samsamoa@myko/samsamoa] has quit []
13:21 < Mac-arena> djbsquared: Aye. The "A" button.
13:21 < Catfish_Man> Mac-arena: evan fixed that this afternoon
13:21 < djbsquared> Mac-arena: works here?
13:21 < Mac-arena> Catfish_Man: Sweet.
13:21 < djbsquared> isnt it just supposed to open the font prefs?
13:21 < Mac-arena> djbsquared: If you've used Show Fonts already, yes.
13:21 < Mac-arena> It opens the FP, but needs to put Save as Default into it.
13:22 < cbarrett> okay so is there anything else we can reasonably do in a 1.0.x timeline?
13:22 < Mac-arena> Show Fonts does; the message window didn't.
13:22 < cbarrett> (i.e. no interface redesigns)
13:22 < djbsquared> got it
13:22 < Mac-arena> cbarrett: Relabel the button
13:22 < cbarrett> one sec
13:22 < Mac-arena> "Save selection as current default font&color"
13:22 < The_Tick> can we just make whatever they pick the default
13:22 < The_Tick> and make that button for one time use
13:23 < Catfish_Man> The_Tick: no, we tried that
13:23 < Catfish_Man> didn't work
13:23 < The_Tick> didn't work how?
13:23 < Catfish_Man> people hated it, couldn't figure out how to get their font back to normal
13:23 < Mac-arena> Users wanted to know how to set plain text again.
13:23 < cbarrett> iirc that's the old behavior.
13:23 < Mac-arena> cbarrett: Aye.
13:23 < The_Tick> I hate fonts
13:23 < The_Tick> heh
13:23 < Mac-arena> Not everyone does :)
13:24 < EarthMkII> clearly
13:24 < The_Tick> ok, just the font panel :)
13:24 < cbarrett> Suggestions for retitling the button other than Mac-arena's?
13:24 < cbarrett> 21:23 < Mac-arena> "Save selection as current default font&color"
13:24 < The_Tick> too long
13:24 < Catfish_Man> way too long
13:24 < Mac-arena> No kidding. ;)
13:24 < cbarrett> Thus why I asked for other suggestions :)
13:24 < djbsquared> "Set as permanent"?
13:24 < The_Tick> "Make This Default"
13:24 < EarthMkII> "set font from selection"
13:24 < The_Tick> make a ticket for this
13:24 < Catfish_Man> I think that without redesigning the interface, we'll be unable to address this issue effectively. The current fonts-in-two-places setup is just i
nherently unintuitive
13:24 < The_Tick> then it can be decided there
13:24 < Mac-arena> All of those only mention fonts, or nothing at all. The problem is that it doesn't indicate that colors are covered too.
13:25 < The_Tick> Catfish_Man: completely agreed
13:25 < EarthMkII> Mac-arena: do we need to state that?
13:25 < The_Tick> Mac-arena: "Make This Default"...
13:25 < cbarrett> Catfish_Man: 1.1 planning is the next itme :)
13:25 < Catfish_Man> cbarrett: k
13:25 < The_Tick> some variation of that
13:25 < cbarrett> *item
13:25 < Mac-arena> The_Tick: Right, so it only applies to the font (in the user's mind)
13:25 < The_Tick> Mac-arena: it doesn't say font
13:25 < EarthMkII> how about "set style from selection"?
13:25 < Mac-arena> Because there is no color control there (that the user sees).
13:25 < cbarrett> EarthMkII: I like that.
13:25 < Mac-arena> The_Tick: It's the Font Panel. What *else* is there?
13:25 < Mac-arena> EarthMkII: That works.
13:25 < djbsquared> yea
13:26 < Mac-arena> Still might be too vague about colors, though
13:26 < Mac-arena> *We* know it includes colors, but users don't.
13:26 < cbarrett> That's good enough for now, I'll make a tidket later.
13:26 < The_Tick> Mac-arena: I think we need to ditch font panel
13:26 < cbarrett> lets move on.
13:26 < Catfish_Man> which selection is it referring to?
13:26 < The_Tick> in the end
13:26 < Mac-arena> "Style just means bold, italic, or underline, right?"
13:26 < Catfish_Man> The_Tick: that's the next item :)
13:26 < cbarrett> Let's move on, ok?
ts
13:27 < The_Tick> before 2007 SoC starts
13:27 < Catfish_Man> The_Tick: that definitely seems reasonable to me
13:27 < hal2k> the SoC stuff is already integrated, right?
13:27 < hal2k> into trunk
13:27 < Catfish_Man> yeah
13:27 < cbarrett> yes
13:27 < Catfish_Man> just needs polishing
13:27 < The_Tick> the functionality in the SoC stuff is already in trunk
13:27 < The_Tick> is almost fully baked
13:27 < The_Tick> and even resolves a crasher
13:27 < EarthMkII> woo
13:28 < The_Tick> I think we need to get a more baked menu item thing from zac
13:28 < zac> baked?
13:28 < The_Tick> done
13:28 < Catfish_Man> that's ticketed, iirc
13:28 < The_Tick> I haven't looked
13:28 < cbarrett> worked/tested/polished
13:28 < The_Tick> ya, just testing
13:28 < EarthMkII> when you say 'baked'...
13:28 < The_Tick> which leads to refinements
13:28 < Mac-arena> Heheh
13:28 < zac> baked to me means smoke some weed..
13:28 < Mac-arena> I was trying to think of one.
13:28 < cbarrett> on topic, heheheheehehehe
13:28 < The_Tick> EarthMkII: oven, not smoke
13:28 < Catfish_Man> yeah, standard technical term
13:28 < EarthMkII> heh
13:28 < The_Tick> sorry
13:28 < zac> the default xtra i submitted was thrown together by me in about 5 minutes
13:28 < zac> it is by no means what i think should be in 1.1
13:28 < cbarrett> Catfish_Man: technical term for GETTING FUCKIN BAKED
13:28 < cbarrett> anyway
13:28 < The_Tick> a completely Q/A tested and Usability tested feature
13:29 < EarthMkII> just funny verbage, s'all
14:29 < cbarrett> Anyway, back on topic:
14:29 < Mac-arena> zac: Which Xtra is that?
14:29 < The_Tick> cbarrett: please let's not curse in these logs :)
14:30 < zac> Mac-arena: Adiumy.MenuBarIcons
14:30 < Mac-arena> Ah.
14:30 < cbarrett> 2.a.i.
14:30 < Mac-arena> 2xsai?
14:30 < Catfish_Man> haha
14:30 < The_Tick> http://trac.adiumx.com/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&milestone=Adium+X+1.1
14:30 < cbarrett> When are we going to close that?
14:30 < Mac-arena> That?
14:30 < cbarrett> i.e. not accept new tickets for it.
14:30 < The_Tick> there are some items left over from expecting to have smack in 1.1
14:30 < cbarrett> The 1.1 milestone.
14:30 < Mac-arena> ah
14:30 < The_Tick>Man's?
14:31 < The_Tick> Mac-arena: ya, sure
14:31 < Catfish_Man> I'll make a new&enhanced mockup as well
14:31 < cbarrett> 2aii: edr1084?
14:32 < edr1084> ii and ii are pretty much the same issue
14:32 < cbarrett> edr1084: you added this item, want to say something about it?
14:32 < cbarrett> edr1084: speak on, I'm going to take a quick bathroom break.
14:32 < Catfish_Man> edr1084: ii and ii ARE the same issue :P
14:32 < Mac-arena> Pointer aliasing
14:32 < Mac-arena> That just came to my mind ;)
14:33 < edr1084> basically, with the release we've lost the aid of debug logs
14:33 < Mac-arena> Plug-in.
03:33 *** TownCrier_ has joined #adium-mtg
03:33 *** TownCrier has quit IRC
03:33 <hal2k> maybe a special debug version?
03:33 <edr1084> so I was thinking we might want to have something available to testers rather than simply saying "build from svn"
03:33 <Catfish_Man> Mac-arena: how would said plugin work? Re-redefine AILog?
03:33 <Mac-arena> Have the debug-logger always be compiled, but send people a plug-in that turns on the debug-logger.
03:33 <The_Tick> edr1084: when the milestone is closed
03:33 <The_Tick> well, all tickets closed
03:34 *** TownCrier_ is now known as TownCrier
03:34 <The_Tick> then ya, I agree
03:34 <The_Tick> but as we saw with 1.0 betas
03:34 <Catfish_Man> The_Tick: he means post-release...
03:34 <cbarrett> I agree with Evan's comment: I think we should post and have a available, a debug build, for each release.
03:34 <The_Tick> we just kept getting repeat issues
03:34 <edr1084> I mean I'm not saying nightlies as far as that goes, but I think we need something
03:34 <The_Tick> that's the only problem i have with it
03:34 <Catfish_Man> edr1084: greatcaffeine's builds have been serving very well imo
03:35 <edr1084> agreed
03:35 <Mac-arena> cbarrett: That's one way. I kinda like the drop-in-a-plug-in-to-debug-it idea, though.
03:35 <edr1084> I was directing some of them to his
03:35 <edr1084> but he hasn't updated recently
03:35 <cbarrett> Okay so what have we come up with that I can put in the notes :P
03:35 <Mac-arena> It could come up with a nag screen at start asking you whether you still need it. If not, it moves itself to the Trash.
03:35 <The_Tick> cbarrett: nothing yet
03:35 <cbarrett> ok, good
03:35 <cbarrett> (meaning I haven't missed anything)
03:36 <Mac-arena> cbarrett: I suggested a plug-in to enable the debug logger, which would always be present but simply turned off in release builds (as opposed to not there).
03:36 <Mac-arena> That makes getting debug logs as simple as dropping a plug-in.
03:36 <edr1084> that could work
03:36 <cbarrett> cool.
03:36 <The_Tick> ya, that sounds like a plan
03:36 <Mac-arena> And it can have a nag screen, so the user doesn't forget about it and so it doesn't get misused for evil purposes.
03:36 <cbarrett> we ready to move on to 10x?
03:36 <The_Tick> it'd negate a lot of extra trac ticket work too
03:37 <Mac-arena> Did we cover ii?
03:37 <Mac-arena> Yeah, it got folded into iii
03:37 <Mac-arena> OK
03:37 <cbarrett> okay 2b
03:37 <The_Tick> I'd like 1.0.1 to happen next friday
03:37 <The_Tick> or thursday
03:37 <Catfish_Man> fine by me
03:38 <djbsquared> 14th?
03:38 <djbsquared> 15th?
03:38 <djbsquared> one of those?
03:38 <Catfish_Man> oh, right, I need to fix something in sparkle before 1.1
03:38 <Catfish_Man> gotta ticket that
03:38 <The_Tick> ya, start beta'ing tuesday
03:38 <The_Tick> or something like that
03:38 <cbarrett> so friday, the 16th?
03:38 <The_Tick> sounds good
03:38 <djbsquared> friday is 15 i think
03:38 <The_Tick> gives us a weekend if things go south
03:38 <djbsquared> nope, i lie
03:38 <cbarrett> no it's a 16th.
03:38 <djbsquared> friday is 16
03:38 <djbsquared> sorry cbarrett
03:38 * cbarrett opened up a terminal and typed cal
03:38 <cbarrett> ;)
03:38 <djbsquared> damn numbers
03:39 <Catfish_Man> numbers are weak
03:39 <Mac-arena> iCal FTW
03:39 <Catfish_Man> so yeah, friday
03:39 <Catfish_Man> 2c: end of march for 1.1b I'd say
03:39 <cbarrett> 2c, release dates.
03:39 <The_Tick> I'm against this
03:39 <djbsquared> in what sense?
03:39 <cbarrett> well the item was to decide if we even want to set dates -- I think we should.
03:39 <edr1084> I'd like to get some more help docs made up to include, anyone opposed to just sticking them in as I get them done? or should I hold off and put them all in for 1.1?
03:40 <edr1084> (sorry for back tracking)
03:40 <The_Tick> I don't want to set arbitrary dates on releases based on the fact that we all get really busy
03:40 <cbarrett> edr1084: go for it
03:40 <Mac-arena> More help is always better.
03:40 <Catfish_Man> The_Tick: I wasn't thinking a hard deadline
03:40 <The_Tick> and that school/work should be everyone's priority
03:40 <edr1084> just checking ;)
03:40 <Catfish_Man> I was more thinking 'aim for the end of march'
03:40 <The_Tick> Catfish_Man: I think cbarrett was
03:40 <Catfish_Man> ah, then I agree with you on that one
03:40 <The_Tick> if not then ya
03:40 <cbarrett> The_Tick: If we set a reasonable date, looking ahead at our schedules, and with good planning, we can set fuzzy guidelines.
03:40 <The_Tick> that's how we've been operating
03:40 <EarthMkII> it's still good to have a goal though
03:40 <cbarrett> i.e. we should be at X by date Y.
03:40 <The_Tick> cbarrett: I don't think a hard date works in our best interest
03:41 <The_Tick> it only demoralizes the team if we don't hit it
03:41 <The_Tick> which happened with 1.0 since that had to be pushed back a lot
03:41 <cbarrett> well that's why we pick dates, together, looking at our schedules.
03:41 <The_Tick> and if our schedules change
03:41 <The_Tick> if one of us gets sick
03:41 <EarthMkII> it's too easy to brush a soft timeline aside though
03:41 <cbarrett> then we can change the dates.
03:41 <The_Tick> and then we change it again
03:41 <The_Tick> and again
03:41 <The_Tick> and it demoralizes
03:41 <The_Tick> we can't afford that
03:42 <cbarrett> not having a goal date can lead to anothe 1.0.
03:42 <Catfish_Man> I think if we're cutting off 1.1 right now, we won't have another 1.0
03:42 <EarthMkII> The_Tick: just don't. get. sick.
03:42 <Catfish_Man> 30ish tickets is rather different from 650
03:42 <The_Tick> cbarrett: having a goal is one thing
03:42 <cbarrett> if we're thinking of 1.1. right now, we should be able to say when we're ready to enter beta.
03:42 <edr1084> I think we need SOMETHING, I can say from experience that no firm deadline means "not a priority to work on things"
03:42 <The_Tick> before SoC 2007 is the goal
03:42 <The_Tick> but if we say
03:42 <The_Tick> June 1st 2007
03:42 <cbarrett> I think CFM's suggestion of 1.1b by end of march.
03:42 <cbarrett> is fine.
03:42 <The_Tick> and we release on July 22nd 2007
03:42 <The_Tick> and that continues
03:43 <The_Tick> it's not going to be very good
03:43 <cbarrett> okay I see what you're saying
03:43 * The_Tick sees this at work a lot
03:43 <cbarrett> a hard "release date for the product" is not good
03:43 <The_Tick> it's not beneficial
03:43 <cbarrett> but what about saying we should enter beta around the end of march?
03:43 <Catfish_Man> The_Tick: we actually just hit 3 hard release dates simultaneously at jive
03:43 <The_Tick> that's fine
03:43 <cbarrett> Is that a more acceptable timeline goal?
03:43 <Catfish_Man> it was bad
03:43 <Catfish_Man> lots of QA issues
03:43 <EarthMkII> cbarrett: fine with me
03:43 <The_Tick> Catfish_Man: yep
03:44 <Catfish_Man> cbarrett: wfm
03:44 <The_Tick> Catfish_Man: and when you miss one the team isn't motivated for a week
03:44 <cbarrett> okay so our plan is to set goals for the next stage of the release cycle.
03:44 <cbarrett> and continue that way.
03:44 <The_Tick> I think in the end
03:44 <The_Tick> quarterly releases
03:44 <The_Tick> would be good
03:44 <The_Tick> 3 months or so
03:44 <The_Tick> with 1.x.x releases to address security and bugs when necessary
03:44 <Catfish_Man> makes some sense
03:44 <Catfish_Man> I don't really have an opinion
03:44 <Catfish_Man> on that particular one
03:44 <The_Tick> something to think about :)
03:45 <The_Tick> 1.d?
03:45 <The_Tick> oops
03:45 <The_Tick> 2.d
03:45 <cbarrett> my only worry is that 3 months may not be enough time to work on a large feature
03:45 <cbarr
